[Columcille] could be worse
[Columcille] they could lean toward preterist error
* pascoe leans toward preterism. just not all the way.
* Be`Strong thinks that postmillennialism stands or falls on whether preterism is true....
[pascoe] well, the term postmill itself simply refers to the chronology of Christ's victorious return in relation to the millennium. is it before, or after? I believe after. now I *also* happen to believe that we are in the millennial age of the expansion of Christ's kingdom too, but that's not technically necessary for postmill.
[Be`Strong] right. I agree with all that. But i also take as essential to the usual use of the term a very positive view the spreading and acceptance of the gospel.
[pascoe] yes, that's fairly essential to Scripture itself, I would add.
[Be`Strong] I think i could possibly become an amillenialist (i.e. less optimistic "post" millennialist).
* Columcille is a happy premil dispensationalist. :)
[Be`Strong] I personally think that if the usual sense of the term "postmillennialism" is true, it would have to be the case that preterism is true. That's because the NT seems to think that the age they are in will not be optimistic (prior to the next Age). Since, it also suggests that the next age will be inaugurated by the 2nd Coming, i can't see how postmil could be true.
[Be`Strong] Unless, of course (as i said), if preterism is true. Here are some verses i would allude to.
[pascoe] the term amill itself is a misnomer. because the millennial age is a biblical concept that can't be avoided. but the distinctive features of the position seem to have most to do with a twokingdom view. where Christ rules in a spiritual realm, but does not assert His kingship in the earthly "realworld" realm until some future time.
[Be`Strong] kjv gal 1:4
* JNDarby []Kjv[] Galations 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
[Be`Strong] "From this PRESENT EVIL AGE....."
[pascoe] yes, that age came to an end.
[pascoe] that was the judaic age, of which it was said that the "end of the age has come upon us".
[pascoe] and of which it was say "the way is narrow" and "few find it".
[Be`Strong] That's why i think preterism needs to be true if postmillennium is true. You see that that age ended at 70 AD at the destruction of the Temple. (right?)
[Be`Strong] kjv 2pet 3:1214
* JNDarby []Kjv[] 2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
* JNDarby []Kjv[] 2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
* JNDarby []Kjv[] 2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[Be`Strong] nas 1john 3:23
[Be`Strong] kjv 1john 3:23
* JNDarby []Kjv[] 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
* JNDarby []Kjv[] 1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
[Be`Strong] kjv rom 13:1112
* JNDarby []Kjv[] Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
* JNDarby []Kjv[] Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
[pascoe] I'm just saying that the term postmill itself doesn't really require preterism since it refers to the chronology of Christ's victorious return in relation to the millennium. which is held to be a future event, still. so one's views on the fulfillment of the bulk of the rest of Revelation could be preterist or futurist, technically. tho I agree that most postmills are also preterist to some degree. which I think is consistent, of course
[Be`Strong] man, i just wrote down all the good verses i would use to support the improbability of the Apostolic Age has ended. But i can't remember all the references... Oh well. Maybe next time.
[Be`Strong] right. I agree with all your distinctions.
[Be`Strong] I agree that postmil just has reference to when the millenium happens in relation to the coming of Christ. Also, that amill is a misnomer. They believe in a millenium.
[pascoe] I would also distinguish between "coming of Christ" and Christ's vitorious return. I believe that Scripture uses terms like "coming of the Lord" or "day of the Lord" to refer to times of God's visited judgments. and I think there is a good case that Christ visited judgment in the first century on Israel. but that this is not the same as Christ's victorious return, at the fullness of the time of the gentiles and the coming in of nations
into His kingdom.
[Be`Strong] I prefer an optimistic view of the spreading of the Gospel, i just can't find it in Scripture. The Apostles wrote very pestimistically. They hardly write in a way that is optimistic (1 Cor 15).
[pascoe] for example, Christ tells the chief priest that he will see the Son of Man "coming on the clouds of heaven". I believe this is a reference to a visitation of God's judgment.
[Be`Strong] oops, with 1 Cor 15 as one of those exceptions.
[Be`Strong] a possible exception.
[pascoe] the apostles certainly lived in a dark time, but this was because the Church was in infancy. in its seed form. and Satan knew that his time was short. it's always best to attack your opponent in infancy, which is precisely what Herod tried to do to the Christ child.
[Be`Strong] I hope you're right. I just really don't see it in Scripture. Wilson and others seem, at least to me, to be reversing the sense of Scripture when they (and you, if i recall correctly) interpret verses like 2 Pet 3:13 in a way to say that it was fulfilled at 70 A.D. But the context seems to be "Christ's Victorious Return".
[pascoe] but if the apostles could see us today, I believe they would be shocked by our modern pessimism, and our practical visionless view of the kingdom on the earth. we have nearly completely become escapist. the only hope in our gospel today is that Christ might smuggle a few souls across the border while we get by until His air lift comes to take us out of here to where He has some real authority.
[Be`Strong] Will There Be a Golden Age Before Christ Returns? http://www.upperregister.com/other_studies/golden.html This is an article by the controversial writer Lee Irons, but i think his point in this article is difficult to refute.
[pascoe] some people have a very odd notion of a Golden Age. utopian visions, etc. which has little to do with preterism or postmill optimism.
[pascoe] what do you think is the difficulty with 2Pet 3:13?
[Be`Strong] I think the context is clearly the Victorious Return of Christ, don't you?
[pascoe] are you thinking of 2Pe 3:12?
[pascoe] I think Peter is refering to the visitation of God's judgment that was about to come upon that generation.
[Be`Strong] Paul and the other Apostles seemed to believed (rightly or wrongly) that the next major prophetic event will be Christ's Victorious Return. They don't seem to be aware of a Covenantal "parenthesis" (if i can use that term heheheheh) between Christ's coming at AD 70 and sometimes in the distant future.
[pascoe] and Peter is looking thru that judgment to the other side, which is a new heaven and new earth. i.e. a "new age". which is the Church age.
[pascoe] which passage in Paul are you thinking of?
[pascoe] 2PETER 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! NASB
[pascoe] 2PETER 3:13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. NASB
[pascoe] many people look at verse 12 and think that Peter must be describing a meltdown of the cosmos itself. and all of the elements of the periodic table.
[pascoe] but they didn't have a periodic table of elements then. the term "elements" is stoichia, which refers to elemental things, basics, firstprinciples.
[pascoe] what Peter is saying is that the principle and basics of their world ornament (kosmos) are coming to and end. they will be destroyed. this is similar to how Peter describes the destruction of the world in Noah's flood. the world itself remained tho with Noah victorious, and unrighteousness cleansed and removed.
[pascoe] and Peter describes the very same arrangement in vs 1213. the elementals and principles of the old are being judged by God, and what remains, as with Noah's flood, is a new heaven and a new earth, cleansed of unrighteousness.
[pascoe] and just as Noah had to take dominion over the land again, so the people of God are to take dominion. this purpose has never changed. not since Adam was told to take dominion. God *will* have His kingdom on the earth.
[pascoe] the only thing that has changed since the garden is that now the earth is occupied by an enemy and by sin, whereas before the fall it wasn't.
[pascoe] so Noah is commanded again to multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and Israel is told to take the land promised by God and subdue it, and Christ sends His disciples into the earth to disciple the nations to Christ and baptize them into the kingdom.
[Be`Strong] yes, and all that also fits (imho more so) the 2nd Coming of Christ (Victorious Return).
[pascoe] not really.
[Be`Strong] "wherein righteousness dwells" suggests to me perfect righteousness.
[pascoe] the typical premill model of Christ's return is that Christ's kingdom comes down from heaven fully formed, like the 82nd airborn. and is imposed on an unwilling unconverted populace. and all of this without gospel laboring. whereas the examples I mentioned above involved generational growth and dominion, with gospel laboring.
[pascoe] LUKE 1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. NASB
[pascoe] LUKE 1:6 And they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord. NASB
[Be`Strong] so that there is no unrighteousness present any longer. I might be argued that Dan 9 predicts that the Messiah will bring in everlasting righteousness. But if Christ did do that at the cross (and i agree in a sense), then how could Peter look for a future righteousness? Obviously, (at least to me) Peter is looking forward to a perfect outer/external universal righteousness.
[pascoe] how do you take Luke 1:6 concerning Zacharias and Elizabeth?
[pascoe] that they were sinless?
[pascoe] sinlessly perfect in a utopic sense?
[Be`Strong] I believe that the Kingdom is "already, but not yet" (as Ladd suggests). If the kingdom were fully here, then it seems to me EVERY obedient Christian would ALWAYS prosper (according to OT promises). And that EVERY Christian would be healed physically from sickness whenever they repent of their sins and are prayed for by the elders of the Church (since both OT and NT teaches healing in the atonement).
[pascoe] I would offer that in many cases, when Scripture describes a state of righteousness, whether talking about Elizabeth, or David, or Israel, it is not refering to a perfect compliance with an abstract set of rules. rather it is refering to a right relationship. righteousness with God is relational and personal.
[pascoe] in other words, Christ comes to establish righteousness, by restoring our right standing and relationship with God. this will certainly have an impact on our obedience to the list of rules, but the deeper concern is the relationship itself.
[pascoe] Be`Strong: I can accept some of the "already, not yet" accounts, but they usually stop short of Scripture. I'll explain why.
[Be`Strong] Also, when you read Luke chapters 12, the expectation of the people (Mary, Zacharias, Simeon) is the restoration of national Israel.
[pascoe] it is true that Christ's kingdom does not plop down, fullyformed, from heaven, without gospel labor. Christ describes His kingdom as expansive. growing up like a mustard seed, leavening the whole lump like leaven. it is historical and generational.
[pascoe] so we can say that the kingdom grows from glory to glory, like the water which flowed out of the temple floor in Ezekiel's vision. it starts as a trickle, but becomes a torrent that goes to the ends of the earth.
[Be`Strong] When i read Psalm 37, 34, 27 etc, the Kingdom (in its fulness) has the complete and utter destruction of the wicked.
[pascoe] but where the "already, not yet" account falls short is this...
[Be`Strong] kjv psalm 37:911
* JNDarby []Kjv[] Psalms 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
* JNDarby []Kjv[] Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
* JNDarby []Kjv[] Psalms 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
[pascoe] the issue concerning the kingdom is whether/when/where is Christ asserting His kingship. some say that He asserts it now, but only in some heavenly realm. some say that He doesn't assert His kingly authority now at all. others say that He will assert His kingly authority on earth in some future time. but what does Christ actually say?
[pascoe] how does Christ actually teach us to pray concerning the kingdom?
[Be`Strong] We have not yet inherited the earth so that even though we "look diligently, we don't see any of the wicked".
[pascoe] does Christ teach us that He asserts His authority now, or that we should hold off?
[pascoe] Be`Strong: right, not yet. but nations have been claimed for Christ in history. and the most surprising example is the first one, the Roman Empire itself.
[Be`Strong] whereas the examples I mentioned above involved generational growth and dominion, with gospel laboring. 5 Yes, and i completely understand. I prefer that, but i just don't find it in the NT.
[pascoe] have you forgotten the great commission?
[pascoe] MATTHEW 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. NASB
[pascoe] MATTHEW 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, NASB
[Be`Strong] " sinlessly perfect in a utopic sense?" No, i would take it the way you do. Obviously they weren't without sin.
[pascoe] ISAIAH 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. NASB
[pascoe] ISAIAH 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of {His} government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the \Lord\ of hosts will accomplish this. NASB
[pascoe] granted that's OT. 8)
[pascoe] but it is certainly Messianic.
[pascoe] do we suppose that Christ has just declared His full authority over all heaven *and* earth, and *therefore* sent His disciples out into the world knowing that He will never supply the zeal to accomplish anything by it?
[pascoe] what sort of King do we suppose that Christ is?
[pascoe] and who is giving the nations to whom? the Ancient of Days is giving them to the Son of Man. without even asking our permission, or taking a democratic vote.
[Be`Strong] "so we can say that the kingdom grows from glory to glory, like the water which flowed out of the temple floor in Ezekiel's vision. it starts as a trickle, but becomes a torrent that goes to the ends of the earth." Yeah, that's a really great PostMill passage!
[Be`Strong] The stream actually grows stronger the farther it goes along, not weaker (unlike actual physical streams).
[pascoe] the Ancient of Days speaks to the Son and says "sit enthroned at My right hand, while I make Your enemies Your footstool". this is not a flick of a switch imagery, but rather the imagery of "rule in the midst of Your enemies! until they are fully conquered".
[Be`Strong] You make really good points.
[pascoe] PSALMS 99:5 Exalt the \Lord\ our God, And worship at His footstool; Holy is He. NASB
[Be`Strong] "Almost thou persuadest me to be a PostMillennialist"
[pascoe] 8)
[pascoe] PSALMS 132:7 Let us go into His dwelling place; Let us worship at His footstool. NASB
[pascoe] the footstool imagery is the place of worship of God. it is connected with the mercy seat itself.
[pascoe] so the notion that Christ's enemies are made His footstool is the concept of mercy and worship.
[Be`Strong] I have to admit, that the PostMillennialist vision is aweinspiring. I WANT it to be true.
[pascoe] this is the time of year when we sing "Joy to the World". read the words sometime. it's a Scriptural paraphrase. "far as the curse is found".
[pascoe] I hope that God will grant His people the same zeal by which He Himself will accomplish and establish His own kingdom on the earth. and that He would be pleased to show His power in our generation, because we actually believe His promises, and are not unbelieving as Israel was in the day they refused to enter the land and take it.
[Be`Strong] Well, you've revived a postmill longing and itch i've had...... Shame on you!
[Be`Strong] The thing is that the NT does't speak in that way. Sam Waldron's article (based on an audio series?) "Theonomy, A Reformed Baptist Assessment" makes good points. http://www.reformedreader.org/rbs/tarba.htm
[pascoe] I'm thankful that God will have His kingdom on the earth, as has always been His purpose, since the garden. and that His purposes don't ultimately depend on how we feel about His prospects.
[Be`Strong] Have you read it before?
[pascoe] if God will find any fault with me in regard to my view of the kingdom, I would much rather be faulted for being too zealous and too optimistic, than be faulted for lacking enough optimism. in other words, why are we trying to error in the direction we seem to want to err in?
[Be`Strong] I often wish our Lord made it more clear exactly what He meant by our praying "Thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".
[pascoe] right. if only Christians could pray that way and really mean it today. the world would not stand a chance.
[Be`Strong] "if God will find any fault with me in regard to my view of the kingdom, I would much rather be faulted for being too zealous and too optimistic, than be faulted for lacking enough optimism. in other words, why are we trying to error in the direction we seem to want to err in?" Very good point. I've made the same remark to JKnox before.
[Be`Strong] JohnKnox
[Be`Strong] Or Cranmer (is one of his other nicks).
[pascoe] ah, Cranmer. he paid us a visit earlier, to inform us that God's law "sucks".
[pascoe] I thought Psalm 119:48 was the best antidote to that nonesense
[pascoe] PSALMS 119:48 And I shall lift up my hands to Thy commandments, Which I love; And I will meditate on Thy statutes. NASB
[Be`Strong] Well, my position has been for a while to live like a PostMillennialist. Just because your point makes sense. If we are going to err, we might as well err on the side of expecting great things (as William Carey that great Baptist missionary said, "Expect great things from God. Attempt great things for God."
[Be`Strong] Well, i've gotta go. :(
[Be`Strong] Thanks for the chat :=))))
[pascoe] thank you too.
[pascoe] good night.
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